我的一千個兄弟姊妹

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主持人

資深媒體人,台灣東吳法律畢,紐約大學媒體生態學碩士肄業。曾任中天、TVBS、三立駐美特派,寰宇新聞台《范琪斐的寰宇漫遊》主持人。2018年返台定居,現為 Line《范琪斐的TODAY看世界》國際新聞短評主持人,著有《買槍,養馬,呼大麻:范琪斐的美國時間》。

記者

德國之聲記者/客家同志人夫/貓奴,專業是國際新聞、人權與性別議題,曾擔任教師、人權工作者、節目主持。相信要為自由決策提供自由資訊,理想是打造一個更具同理心的社會。

在Barry十八歲的那年,他從媽媽的口中得知,剛過世的爸爸並不是自己的生父,並且家中的兩個小孩都是透過人工授精生下來的。在一步步地解開謎團之後,他發現自己竟然有超過六百個手足,於是他決定將自己的尋根之旅擴大成一部紀錄片的拍攝計畫

Barry Stevens與人工授精生下他的生父維斯納

全集逐字稿

※本集逐字稿中英並陳,與實際播出內容如有出入,以實際播出為準

范琪斐 我身邊有很多朋友,他們的孩子都是做出來的,他們常常會說,做試管或做人工受孕的過程對身體造成多大的負擔,但我一直是到看了電視劇《未來媽媽》才了解,對很多人來說,生孩子,不只是身體的負擔很重,其實精神上的壓力更大。但我最大的疑問是,為什麼要生得這麼辛苦呢?很想要孩子的話,去領養不就結了嗎?你想要孩子,很多孩子需要父母,這不是剛剛好嗎?為什麼生一個自己的孩子會這麼重要?血緣真的有那麼神奇的力量嗎?

范琪斐 宗翰,我們上一集有提到,你跟你先生為了要生孩子,其實是真的非常不容易,那我相信這個問題有很多人問過你了,但是我想再問一次,為什麼不考慮領養呢?

鄒宗翰 我自己有考慮,其實這在我們之中有不同的意見,但是我老公認為說,他希望這個孩子是有我們的血緣,那我覺得對他來講有很多綜合的因素考量。不管是有親友告訴我們說,其實領養的孩子可能會在他成長過程中背負著一種他原生家庭的命運,而且是不管國籍,我們聽過德國的朋友分享,因為那個德國朋友家,他的哥哥是巴西人就是領養的,那還有台灣的朋友這種法律案例的分享,包含我自己的媽媽也曾經告訴過我說,當他被姑姑領養的時候,雖然她感覺有了兩個家,可是這兩個家的連結都沒有這麼深,所以我覺得這些都在我們討論過程中成為了一個我們做決定或思考這件事情的方向,但是我自己是很希望可以領養一個孩子,也許一個親生一個領養,就這件事情是,對我來講它不是一個定案,它是持續在思考中的一件事。

范琪斐 血緣這件事情,你覺得對你來講重不重要?

鄒宗翰 我覺得不能說不重要,因為當我去看我的朋友或親戚的小孩子的時候,我都會覺得說,他可能哪裡像你啊,然後哪裡是你的縮影啊,我覺得對於自己的下一代能夠有自己的,不管是長相也好、個性也好,就是你看到一個迷你的自己,我覺得那會是一個不一樣的感動。

范琪斐 可是你跟你先生,這個孩子生下來應該只能用到你們其中一個人的精子嘛?所以其實你只有一半的機會,會真正跟你的孩子有血緣關係,你先跟我們講一下這個過程好了。

鄒宗翰 這過程就是我們兩個人的精子都已經送去美國了,那送去美國之後就會跟我們捐卵者的卵子做精卵結合,形成胚胎,不確定最後到能夠成功存活的、或者是健康的胚胎有幾個,那我們選擇的方式就是讓醫生去決定哪一個胚胎是健康,不管性別,也不管是誰的基因,就把他生下來。

范琪斐 可是你如果生下來,你剛好沒有輪到,這樣要不要緊?

鄒宗翰 其實我想過這個耶,因為我老公比我老嘛,比我大四歲,所以也許他可以先生一個他的小孩,如果我們有第二胎的話就可以考慮我的,那如果最後都是我老公也沒有關係,因為我覺得我已經愛他到我覺得這個小孩完全沒有我的基因,他還是我的小孩的這種感覺。

范琪斐 即使你自己沒有血緣,但是因為是是你很愛的人,有這個血緣就也夠了。

鄒宗翰 對。

范琪斐 可是還是要有血緣。

鄒宗翰 對我來說不一定,對我老公是。

范琪斐 今天《說故事的人》,我們要訪問的 Barry Stevens 對血緣有一個很特殊的觀察角度,他是透過捐精生下來的孩子,他的生父就像我們上一集提到的 Ari 一樣,是個超級捐精者,Barry 算過,他可能有一千個兄弟姐妹。

鄒宗翰 孩子沒有辦法選擇自己的出生,其實我也擔心我代孕生下的小孩有一天會怨嘆我,為什麼要把他生下來,我對於未來寶寶的擔心也許可以從一個人的身上找到答案。

Barry Stevens Hi, my name is Barry Stevens. I’m 68 years old. I live in Toronto, in Canada. I’m a documentary filmmaker. And I am conceived by artificial insemination, what’s normally called donor conceived. And I have many, many, many half siblings that I’ve discovered over the years.

嗨,我的名字是 Barry Stevens ,今年六十八歲,住在加拿大的多倫多,我是一名紀錄片工作者。我是透過人工授精生下來的,也就是大家常常聽到的捐精受孕,這幾年下來我發現我有很多很多很多同父異母的兄弟姐妹。

鄒宗翰 我跟 Barry 約在 Skype 上訪談,但因為他電腦麥克風臨時出了問題,所以改用手機跟我對談,沒有辦法開鏡頭,看不到他的人。在英國出生長大的他,雖然是加拿大人,但聲音聽起來就像很多英國紳士一樣,講話不疾不徐,娓娓道來他的人生故事。他最近的紀錄片作品也在《公視主題之夜SHOW》播出,叫做 World’s Biggest Family,講述他找尋自己捐精父親,還有同父異母兄弟姊妹的故事,他也拍攝了其他捐精者生下的孩子,引起了廣大的迴響。

Barry Stevens I suppose the title of that documentary was a little bit ironic, because of course, it isn’t the same as a family that grows up together at all, I’m quite close to some of my half siblings, and I’m friendly with all of them. But it’s not the same as the sister I grew up with, from my birth all through my life. And she is also genetically my half sister exactly like the others are genetically. But of course, it’s very different.

But that said, there are similarities between us, meaning the half siblings who are created by the sperm of the same men. And the similarities are striking. We have common interest in the experience of discovering that our paternity was not as we originally thought it was. That is to say, our fathers were not our genetic fathers. So we share this odd experience. But it’s more than that. We also share similar styles of humor of thinking, a tremendous amount of chattiness, I must say. And you can see this in contrast with my sister’s. My sister is also conceived by a sperm provider, but a different one. And her cohort which numbers about a dozen half siblings from the same donor. They’re very different. When you see us all together, as did happen once it’s striking. My sister and her family are much quieter and more thoughtful. Whereas my bunch are always talking, and talking over each other and being quite loud. It’s just one of the minor differences that you can see immediately.

我的紀錄片片名的確是有點諷刺啦,因為當然,我們不是普遍那種一起長大的家人,雖然說我跟後來相認的同父異母兄弟姐妹相處起來都算融洽,其中還有一些特別親近的,但還是比不上從小跟我一起長大的姊姊,從出生到現在,我幾乎認識她一輩子了。雖然從基因的角度來看,她是我同母異父的姊姊,跟其他同父異母的兄弟姊妹沒什麼不同,但實際上卻很不一樣。

不過話說回來,我跟同父異母的兄弟姐妹還是有很多奇妙的相似之處。例如,我們有共同的經驗,我們都發現自己跟父親的關係跟原本想的有出入,我們都覺得這個經驗很有趣,也就是說,我們的父親都不是我們的親生父親,所以我們有這種共同的奇怪經驗。但不止這樣,我們在思維模式上也有類似的幽默感,而且我必須說,我們都超級聒噪的。這跟我原生家庭的姊姊比起來,差異就非常明顯了。我的姊姊也是人工授精生下來的,但她是來自另一個捐精者,而她那一邊,也找到了十幾個同父異母的兄弟姐妹。當你看到我們全部湊在一起的時候,馬上會發現兩邊是非常不同的,這還真的有發生過喔!非常驚人。我的姊姊和她的家人都比較安靜、比較體貼。而我這一掛的,話說個不停,還會互相插嘴,而且嗓門超大,這還只是其中的一個一眼就能看出來的小區別而已。

鄒宗翰 在那個年代,很多透過捐精捐卵生下來的孩子並不知道自己是透過捐精捐卵生下來的。那時流行的理論,是怕孩子心理受到影響,覺得自己跟別的小孩不一樣,所以過去許多捐精或捐卵者生下的小孩幾乎都是在長大之後,才發現除了自己認知的父母之外,還有基因連結的生理父母,像是 Barry 就是在他18歲那年才得知他自己的身世。

Barry Stevens Well, it was around Christmas in Montreal. And we were spending our first Christmas together without our father. He died in an accident that summer. And my mother said she had something to tell us and sat us down. And it was probably Christmas Eve or something. I don’t remember. But it was around Christmas. And yeah, it was a shock. I mean, it was not a shock, like, not a terrible, painful thing, just sort of, well, didn’t expect that. And then, you know, you think well, I wonder who it was, who the guy was, and we were right away, we were told we could never know who it was. So I just kind of accepted that.

I thought it was kind of cool, in a way. I mean, when you’re 18, you know, you like things which make you special. And I thought it was kind of cool that I was you know, test tube baby. And one of the first, one of the first human beings produced by science, not sex. So I thought, cool. I’m the… I’m the start of something. And for a long time, it’s funny, sometimes I’d tell people, like very rarely tell like a girlfriend, I’d say, “Well, you know, this is something interesting. I don’t actually… because I was produced by sperm donation.” And nobody really was very interested. And then suddenly, in the 90s, it was like, oh my god, people were really interested. There was a cultural shift. It was strange. I’m not quite sure why that happened, or whether it’s relevant.

那年夏天,我們的爸爸因為一場意外去世了,到了聖誕節前後,我們在蒙特婁,那是爸爸過世後的第一個聖誕節。我媽媽說她有話要對我們說,叫我們坐下來,大概是平安夜吧,我不記得了,總之是在聖誕節前後。當時對我來說是一個衝擊,我的意思是,不是那種很糟糕或是痛苦的打擊,只是有點像是⋯⋯哇!還真沒想到,然後你會馬上想說,那不知道這個捐精的人是誰?但是我媽媽說我們永遠都不會知道是誰,所以當時我也只好接受。

但我當時覺得其實滿酷的,我的意思是,在某種程度上,當你18歲的時候,你會喜歡一些讓你覺得自己很特別的東西,所以我當時覺得「試管嬰兒耶!滿酷的」,而且是第一批透過這種科學產生、而不是性行為產生的人類。所以我覺得很酷,我也算是某種先驅者欸。很長一段時間,蠻好玩的,有時候我會跟人家說,像是偶爾我會跟某任女朋友說:「欸,跟你說個有趣的,我是靠著別人捐精生下來的。」但當時沒有什麼人真的感興趣。然後到了九零年代,大家的反應忽然變成「哦!我的天啊!」,大家忽然變得很感興趣,這裡面有一個文化的轉變,是滿奇怪的,我不太清楚為什麼會發生這種情況,或者說這到底有沒有關聯。

鄒宗翰 很多國家的法律規定捐精捐卵的人要匿名,像臺灣就是,這是為了減少將來的法律糾紛才這樣設計的吧?怕未來的子女找上門要遺產,或是捐精捐卵的人跑來搶小孩之類的。Barry 就是透過匿名捐精生下來的,所以當 Barry 想要找出他的生理父親時並不容易,花了很多工夫,最後才確定他的父親是英國生物學家維斯納(Bertold Wiesner),維斯納跟他的妻子巴頓(Mary Barton)1940 年代在倫敦開設生育診所,專門為不育夫婦提供「高智商男士」捐出的精子來進行人工受孕,這個診所一直經營到 1960 年代,後來他們銷毀了所有的醫療記錄,讓這些嬰兒長大後沒有辦法追查生父的身份,Barry 是透過基因檢測和網路連結,才發現自己可能有六百甚至到一千個兄弟姊妹。我問 Barry,他跟其他維斯納捐精生出來的子女 是怎麼看待他們這個生理父親呢?

Barry Stevens There is a… perhaps a division in the group or there were some people who think it’s very cool, who want to find out all kinds of things about the biological father who was a brilliant scientist. So some of them want to know all about Bertold Wiesner, and find out about him. He’s long dead. And others don’t like him very much; [they] think he was unethical, irresponsible. And my brother David, who’s in the film, who is the one I’m closest to, I’ve known the longest, he and I together solved the mystery 20 years ago, of who the donor was, and David feels is much more in the camp of doesn’t like him, doesn’t approve of him. Others… And this is sometimes caused some, you know, some discussion or dissension within the group.

I myself, kind of in the middle. I neither condemn him nor adore him. I find him interesting. And it’s clear. One of the things that happens for me is that some things about me… about how my mind works about my personality, perhaps even… I can see coming from, from him. [Stammer] It was like a distant mirror to my own self, finding out who he was. And I think that’s a good image, a mirror from long ago. And that mirror also happens between siblings to some extent. But you know, I think it’s a good thing. I found out in middle age, when I’m already formed as a person. So it wasn’t like that disruptive. It’s just kind of, oh, that’s interesting. I find it fascinating. But I don’t have a huge emotional charge myself, either positive or negative towards the donor that some people do.

大家的看法或許的確是有一些分歧啦,我們其中有些人覺得這蠻酷的,想知道關於生父的一切,所以會想要去追查、了解這個天才科學家維斯納,雖然他已經過世很久了。還有一部分的人不太喜歡他,認為他不顧倫理道德、不負責任。至於我的哥哥大衛,他也有在我的紀錄片裡,他跟我最親近,也認識最久, 二十年前,就是他和我一起解開誰是捐精者這個謎,而大衛覺得,他比較偏向不喜歡他、不認同他的做法。其他人⋯⋯這有時會引起一些⋯⋯一些討論或內部的分歧。

我自己呢,是在中間,我既不譴責他、也不崇拜他,我覺得他很有趣。而且對我來說,很顯然地,我發現⋯⋯關於我的一些事情、關於我的思維如何運作、關於我的個性,也許甚至我可以看到來自於他,這就像一面遙遠的鏡子,看見了他,也照出了我自己。我認為這個比喻很有畫面,一面來自很久以前的鏡子,而這個鏡像在某種程度上也反映在兄弟姐妹之間,我覺得這是件好事。我是在中年的時候發現的,那時我這個人已經成型了,所以並沒有造成太大的困擾,只是一種「喔,這蠻有趣的,我覺得這件事很迷人。」,但跟有些人不同的是,我自己對這個捐精者在情感上並沒有太深的牽絆,無論是正面的還是負面的。

鄒宗翰 對 Barry 來說,他將自己的尋父過程擴大為一項拍攝計畫,去了解其他捐精者生下的人對自己的身份有什麼看法,這也迫使他去思考,到底自己跟養父和生父的關係是什麼?

Barry Stevens Sometimes journalists in the old days would ask me, well, who is your real father, meaning the biological father. And it’s very interesting that people think of it that way. And if you think in the English language, the verb to father means to have sex with a woman that produces a child. To mother in English, is a whole range of behaviors. Mostly the word means to nurture, to care for, to raise a child, to love. And it’s very interesting, those two words are so different and their meaning. But for me, I always had to correct those journalists and say, “No, my real father was my father. He’s not biologically related to me. But he’s my father, he was my father.” And I think most of us feel that. Some of us feel… wounded and angry about the secret being held from us. And perhaps this is less true for me, because my mother told us, and then I chose to go on a quest to figure out who the guy was. So in a way, I kind of dragged people along, or pulled people into this who didn’t necessarily have a choice, and therefore, perhaps it’s more painful for them.

以前,有的記者會問我「所以誰是你的真正的爸爸?」,他指的是跟我有血緣的生父,一般人這樣想是非常有趣的。在英文裡面,「to father」這個動詞的意思是和女人發生性關係有了小孩,但是「to mother」在英文裡卻是一系列的行為,這個詞主要的意思是哺育、照顧、去愛,去撫養孩子長大。這非常有趣,這兩個詞的含義多麼地不同,但對我來說,我總是得糾正那些記者說:「不,我的父親就是我真正的爸爸,雖然他和我沒有血緣關係,但他就是我的父親。」 我想我們這些捐精者生下來的孩子,大多數人都是這樣想的,有些人對於曾經被蒙在鼓裡或許會感到受傷或憤怒,但也許對我來說比較沒有這種感覺, 因為我的母親告訴了我們真相,而我選擇踏上尋找這個人的路,所以在某種程度上,我算是把一些人也攪了進來,讓他們知道了這件事,他們沒什麼選擇, 或許這對他們來說是比較痛苦的。

鄒宗翰 他在紀錄片當中提到自己跟爸爸的關係不親,兩人間好像總是隔著一層薄霧,直到媽媽解謎身世,他才恍然大悟,那些年與爸爸之間的隔閡其來有自。

Barry Stevens Yeah, well, I did interview my mother after I found my brother and began to identify who the donor was. And she said, yeah, the whole thing was difficult because there was a secret. And the secret, in a sense, blocked intimacy in the family. It was this thing that there’s a lie at the core of the family. The children don’t know, the parents do know. So that creates something of a… an untruth. And I think it affected my father. It’s hard to say that, of course, because fathers of that generation from my country because I was born in England, I’m Canadian, but I was born in England, and England at that time, fathers tended to be more distant anyway, that was a different kind of model. It’s common, I think, in many places that the father is more distant to the children. Nevertheless, I can’t help feeling that the particular way in which my father held back. He didn’t, as I would say it, fully inhabit the role of being a father, as I might have wanted, but you know, I, I loved him. And he was, he was a great guy. He was a great guy.

在我找到我的其他兄弟,開始慢慢查出誰是捐精者的時候,我訪問過我媽媽。我媽媽說,對啊,真的很難,因為得一直抱著一個秘密,而這個秘密,在某種意義上阻隔了家人的親密連結,因為在這個家庭的核心裡有一個謊言,小孩子不知道,但是父母親是知道的。所以這就造成了一種⋯⋯不誠實,我想這影響了我爸爸,但當然這也很難說,因為我出生在英國,因為我爸爸那一代,雖然我是加拿大人,而英國在那個時候,父親的角色往往跟家人有更多的距離感,跟現在的相處模式不太一樣,但我想在很多地方,父親與孩子的關係比較疏遠是常見的。就算是這樣,我還是忍不住感覺到我的父親對我有所保留,他沒有辦法完全扮演好我希望他扮演的父親角色,但你知道嗎?我還是愛他的,他是一個很棒的人,他是一個很棒的人。

鄒宗翰 我也問了他跟媽媽的關係是不是有受到這個事件的影響。

Barry Stevens Well, she was very courageous after my father died, to tell us the truth. And I think it was probably because she was a bit lonely in grief missing her husband. She told us that a psychiatrist told her that we must know that something was wrong. I appreciate that very much. It made me closer to her. So you know, I mean, I’m sure the difficulties I had with my mother, you know, any difficulties as we might have had really didn’t have to do with that. But yeah, I think it was a burden for her. I think it was a real burden for her much more than it was for me, as a child before I knew. I guess what we feel as donor offspring, politically, you might say or legally, is that we feel we have a right to our own story, that we have a right to the truth. And this is not about, oh, it might harm us to know the truth, or it might help us to know the truth. That’s really, you know, it’s not a therapeutic decision. It’s a question of rights. And does one have the right to know the truth of one’s own origins? 

我媽她算是非常勇敢,在我爸爸去世後終於跟我們說出真相,我想這可能是因為,在悲傷中的她有點孤單,很想念她的老公。她跟我們說,一個心理醫生告訴她,我們這些小孩一定早就發現事有蹊蹺了。我很感謝她告訴了我們,這拉近了我跟她的距離,所以你知道,我跟我媽媽之間,確實有過一些問題,但是那跟這件事也不一定有關係,但對她來說,這個秘密成為了一個負擔,跟小時候被蒙在鼓裡的我比起來,隱瞞真相對她造成的負擔更大。但我想,作為捐精者的後代,就捍衛自身權益來說,或是說就法律層面而言,我們覺得我們有權知道自己的故事,我們有知道真相的權利,這不是關於說,喔!知道真相可能會讓我們受傷,或是能夠幫助我們什麼,這個決定跟是否能為我們帶來療癒的效果無關,而是一個權利的問題,一個人知道自己是怎麼來到這個世界上的權利。

鄒宗翰 這個藏在家中的潮濕秘密逐漸發霉,讓家人的感情變質,此外,Barry 也認為,這不只是個別家庭的問題,所以他決定把觸角延伸到整個捐精和捐卵的產業,他認為不誠實與不透明很可能會造成各種不幸悲劇。

Barry Stevens Most sperm banks say they have various limits. The American Society of reproductive medicine has something like no more than 10 children per 800,000 community, which is ridiculous, because people move all over the place. I don’t know, I’d have to calculate how many children that would mean in the United States, but it’s a lot. So they’re ridiculous sort of. So there’s the sperm banks in the profession, the medical profession do put some limits on it. But it’s, it’s a limit more honored in the breach [than the observance].  What I mean by that is, they break their own rules all the time. And they lie about it.

Very recently, there was a case that came up of an egg donor, who discovered she had a genetic illness. And what she had done is she’d… To pay for her own treatment, she had donated a lot of her eggs to the clinic. They do this. It’s called egg sharing. So you hyper stimulate the woman, produce a lot of eggs, some of which get fertilized and make a child for her. But some of which, to pay for that very expensive treatment, she donates her eggs to this clinic, and they keep them frozen. And they use them for women who can’t have them, who can’t produce them. So she just got so she called up the clinics that I’ve got this illness. So were there any children’s? Oh, no, no, no, there were no children. And then she goes on donor sibling registry, or some other means and finds that she does. She does have.

And there are lots of lawsuits and lots of sperm, sperm donor clinics have lied to their sperm donors saying, “Oh, don’t worry, you’ll only have five children in Oregon,” where this guy was. And then it turns out he has, because of the direct consumer DNA sites that’s popping up, all the truth is popping up everywhere, that he has about 25 or 30. He doesn’t know how many. And he wanted them only on the East Coast because he was in Oregon. And it turns out, one of his sons… one of them is even going to school in the same class as his daughter.

大多數精子銀行會說他們有制定各種規範,像是美國生殖醫學會規定每八十萬人的社群當中,不得有超過十個孩子來自同一個捐精者,這很荒謬,因為人會四處遷徙。在美國,這樣的孩子總共到底有多少,可能要計算一下才會知道,但總之真的很多很多,所以這種規定其實是很荒謬的,就算精子銀行或是醫學界有這樣的規範,很多時候他們還是陽奉陰違,也就是說,即便有規範也不遵守、甚至撒謊。

像是最近有一個案例,有一位卵子捐贈者發現自己有遺傳性疾病,這件事一開始是她要取卵做人工授精,但因為費用昂貴,為了支付這筆費用,她捐贈了許多的卵子給診所,坊間的確有這種做法,也就是所謂的卵子共享,就是透過刺激女性賀爾蒙產生大量的卵子,其中一些用來授精、並進行人工受孕,而剩下來的就捐贈給診所,藉此來支付療程的費用。而診所則把這些卵子凍起來,之後再賣給其他需要的女性。後來這名女性發現自己有遺傳性疾病,就打去診所問說,她的卵子有沒有被用來進行受孕?診所就說「沒有沒有沒有,一個都沒有」,結果她去捐精捐卵者的登錄網站一查,才發現其實是有的。

這種相關的法律訴訟很多,也有診所對捐精者說「不用擔心,你在奧瑞岡州只會有 5 個孩子」,結果由於 DNA 登錄網站的普及,終於紙包不住火,他才發現自己有大約 25 到 30 個孩子,他甚至不知道真的到底有多少,他當初有說因為自己住奧瑞岡,所以只希望捐給東岸的人,結果後來發現,其中一個靠他捐精生下來的孩子,竟然成了他女兒的同班同學。

鄒宗翰 Barry 的紀錄片逼得整個捐精和捐卵產業直面這些問題,他要求不該再有任何的匿名制度。我問 Barry,紀錄片拍出來之後,是否成功影響了捐精捐卵產業,讓他們負起更多的責任?

Barry Stevens Oh, I don’t know. I doubt it. Frankly, maybe. It seems that donor offspring are on Facebook pages, they’re connecting with each other because of these direct consumer DNA tests, like ancestry and 23andme. They’re finding each other all over the world. But it seems to be very much on a personal level, that they connect. “Oh, this is my story. Oh, nice to meet” You know, they’re not… [they] don’t seem that interested in changing the law, or challenging the powerful interest. Now, this varies from country to country. Australia is very active, and Britain did change the law. So just like adopted children, donor offspring have a right to know, do have access to the identity of their donor going forward into the future. And in Australia, it’s even retrospective in one case, but not the United States, not Canada, not France. So it varies.

They are changing, because they have recognized that the direct to consumer DNA tests have just blown it open. So what they tell their donors now is that they cannot guarantee their anonymity. They’re starting to do that. Now, there’s still, there’s still some clinics and some doctors who haven’t caught on. But the big ones are starting to say that some of them actually refuse to accept donors that aren’t willing to be identifiable. What’s behind it is that in order to do this kind of work, from a practical business point of view, it’s much easier to deal with bits of human tissue, in a fridge, and computer files, much easier to deal with that and somebody comes in to be inseminated, it’s clinical, it’s clean, bang, they’re out, at the end, they get a baby. Job done, money in the bank.

But a human relationship, an ongoing human relationship with people who have needs and desires and complexity. That’s, that’s not what they deal with. Partly because you don’t want to think about it. In order to do this work, you have to cut off the identity of the donor. And you have to put that egg into a different woman, or you have to inseminate a woman with sperm from a man she’s never met. And the whole thing is just… It’s weird, and it’s unusual. It’s not the standard way human beings have been made for hundreds of thousands of years.

我不知道,我的紀錄片會對產業有實質影響?老實說⋯⋯可能吧?但就算是現在捐精者的後代能透過像是家譜公司「先祖」(ancestry)或是基因技術公司「23與我」(23andme)的DNA 鑑定,在臉書上跟彼此相認、找到在世界各地的親人,但是他們之間的連結,還是停留在個人層面上,會互相分享說「啊!我的情況是這樣。喔?很高興認識你!」,但大家似乎對於改變法律或是挑戰這些大財團都不怎麼感興趣,不過這也有國家上的差異,像是澳洲就很積極,英國也修改了法律,跟領養的孩子一樣,捐精或捐卵者的後代也有權利在往後的日子裡去取得捐贈者的身份資訊,澳洲甚至還有一個往前回溯的案例。但像是美國、加拿大,或是法國都不是這樣。所以還是因國家而異。不過我認為他們有在改變, 因為這些公司已經認知到, 一般消費者就可以做自我 DNA 檢測,一切都被攤在陽光下了。所以他們現在會告訴捐贈者說,不能保證他們的匿名性。他們已經開始這麼做了。

當然現在仍然有一些診所和一些醫生還沒有跟上這種潮流,但一些規模較大的診所已經開始不再接受匿名的捐贈者,當初匿名背後的原因是,做這一行的,從實際的商業角度來看,冰箱裡的人體組織和電腦文件單純多了,這些處理起來相對容易。進行人工授精,這是醫療行為,簡單明瞭、乾乾淨淨,一結束就能拍拍屁股走人,嬰兒出生,大功告成,銀行裡就有錢進帳。

但是,反觀人與人之間的關係卻會一直持續,這裡頭有需求、有慾望,非常複雜。這塊是他們不想去處理的,大概也不想面對,為此,他們就必須拋開捐贈者的身份。仔細想想,把捐卵者的卵子在放到另一個女人身體裡, 或者用一個陌生人的精子幫一個女人的卵子授精,這樣的事本身就是奇怪的又不尋常的,這跟人類過去幾百萬年來繁衍生命的方法很不一樣。

鄒宗翰 一個跟生命有關的產業居然這麼害怕面對人,聽他分享完,我自己也感覺憂心忡忡,不曉得自己的代孕的抉擇是對還是錯。這時候很恰巧他的鏡頭居然打開了,出現在我面前的,已經不是紀錄片中的黑髮壯年男子,而是鬍鬚鬢白、慈眉善目的老人家。他開始向關心晚輩一樣詢問我代孕的歷程,我告訴他,我們聽了前輩的建議,基於健康的理由,選擇基因跟我們比較遙遠的白人與拉丁人混血的捐卵者,目前正在配對的階段。

Barry Stevens Yeah, sure. It’s called hybrid vigor sometimes. Yeah, I am a believer in that it’s sort of the opposite of the Nazi viewpoint, that you know, you should be as racially pure as possible. Which, which, of course, is not being the case in my life since I’m half English, ethnically and half Jewish.

But, um… For gay couples, it [has] always been more open. And in fact, in the States, the first sperm bank, which allowed sperm donors to be identifiable to their children, their offspring was a lesbian collective in California. And they were the first in the world in the 1980s. Along with Sweden, yeah. Because if you’re a lesbian couple, and you have a child, then the question is, okay, how did you get a child? And if you’re a gay male, couple, the same, the same question. So. So the openness, you know, there’s no point in lying to your child. So, you know, so right away, that’s one barrier, which I think you won’t have, you can’t have so you’ll be telling the truth.

And then in addition, of course, she won’t, or he won’t look quite like you, because Hispanic Caucasian. The other thing I would say is that I hope that the child may want to know I hope you’ll be, you know, open with the child, and the child may want to know and eventually have a connection with, a relationship with possibly, the egg donor, the biological mother and the gestational mother both it’s quite possible. In fact, at some point in her life, she may want to go there or they may want to come to you. That would be I think, something for you to consider. Perhaps not in the early years, but later on.

對啊,這就是所謂的「混種優勢」,我也相信這種做法,這跟納粹的觀點正好相反, 他們認為最好要盡可能維持血統單一,我自己也是混血,一半英國人、一半猶太人。

不過,對於同志家庭來說,小孩子的身世告知本來一直就是採取比較開門見山的態度。事實上,在美國,第一個允許捐精者身份揭露的精子銀行案例,就是針對加州女同志群體的小孩子們,那時候是 1980 年代,後來瑞典也有案例,因為如果是女同志家庭有了的話,馬上就會被問說「你們是怎麼生下這個孩子的?」,男同志家庭也是。所以這就很明白了,因為說謊也沒什麼意義,所以我覺得你們不會、也不可能去隱瞞,所以一定得說實話。

然後另外⋯⋯當然,這個孩子也不會長得太像你們,因為他有白人跟拉丁人的血統,我想說的另一件事是,我希望你們對孩子坦然,他可能會想去認識捐卵者或是代孕者,甚至跟她們建立連結,而這些捐卵者或是代孕者也是,可能在她們生命中的某個階段,小孩想去找她們,或是她們可能想來找你們。我想這會是你們要考慮的問題,也許不是在剛起步的階段,但在後面的日子裡終究可能會遇到。

鄒宗翰 想起來真的是很奇妙的交集,Barry 是捐精者生下的小孩,而我跟我老公正尋求捐卵者的幫助,這促成了一段很特別的對話,我們也產生了某種連結。既然這麼有緣份,我也想深入他的內心,聽聽他如果有機會再見到兩個爸爸,會想對他們說些什麼。

Barry Stevens Hmm. Well, I’ll be quite emotional, wouldn’t I. I mean, to speak to my father, who’s been dead this half century? I would say, it would just be incredible to see him again. And to say, I know about this, and I’m sorry, you didn’t. You weren’t able to feel that you could tell me and I would make no difference knowing the truth would make me feel better. I also would say quite apart from donor insemination, I’d say, you know, you died when I was 18. Now I’m an old man. And I’m almost as old as you were when you died. And I would, you know, I’ve had a long, quite an interesting life. And I wish that you’d been around longer so that I would have gotten to know you as a mature man. But I love you. And I appreciate you.

With respect to what I’d say to Wiesner the sperm donor. You’re a bit of a rascal, huh? I mean, really? 600 children, do you think that’s okay? But at the same time, I’d want to hang out with him and just spend an evening with him. And listen to what he had to say. If he’s interested in me, you can ask. Certainly tell him, I tell him that I was quite proud of the fact that I was the one who figured out who he was. So I have. I was proud of solving the mystery. I figured out who you were, buddy.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, sort of like, it’s like I, I’m a detective who’s been on the trail of a serial killer for years. And I finally meet him, you know, I arrest him, except he’s not a killer. He’s a producer. So yeah, he’s, he’s like a serial killer. But he’s a serial creator.

如果有機會跟我爸爸說話,我可能會滿激動的,畢竟他已經離開這個世界半個世紀了。我會跟他說「能夠再見到他是太好了」,我也想跟他說,我知道自己的身世了,很遺憾當初沒有讓你感覺到可以親口告訴我這件事,就算我知道也不會有什麼不一樣的,或許會讓我感覺好一點吧?除了人工授精這件事之外,我還想說,你在我 18 歲的時候就過世了,而現在的我也已經是個老人了,我幾乎和你過世的時候一樣老了。我想,我算是過了很長又有趣的一生,如果可以,我多麽希望你也能多活一段時間,這樣我就能以一個成熟的男人的身份來了解你,但無論如何,我愛你,謝謝你。

對於那個捐精者維斯納,我會說,你是不是有點誇張啊?有沒有搞錯啊?六百多個孩子耶!你覺得這樣 ok  嗎?不過我也會想跟他一起相處,跟他徹夜聊天,聽聽他想說什麼,如果他對我感興趣也可以問我問題。當然我還會告訴他,我很自豪自己解開了這個謎題,找出了他是誰,我為自己解開這個謎團感到驕傲,我會告訴他「我可摸清楚你的底細啦,老兄!」

這有點像,我是一個偵探,多年來一直在追查一個連環殺手,最後我終於見到他了,也逮捕到他,只不過他不是奪人性命,而是製造生命。他就像是個連環殺手,但實際上,卻是個連環生命製造者。

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